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Nicki's Wonder List
Community Rights with Michelle Holman
Nicki’s Wonder List
Show Notes
“Community Rights with Michelle Holman”
Season 02, Episode 03
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In this episode, Nicki is joined by Michelle Holman, an activist in the Community Rights movement in Lane County, Oregon.
Michelle Holman has lived in Deadwood, a community in Western Lane County’s Coast Range, for more than 40 years and has been active in the anti-herbicide struggle since the late 1970’s. After many years of her community’s unsuccessful fight to stop government-protected aerial spraying of toxic chemicals by private logging companies, she renounced traditional activism and joined the Community Rights movement. She is a founder of Community Rights Lane County and the Oregon Community Rights Network. She has served on the Mapleton School Board for 35 years, where more than 20 years ago, the school district stopped using toxic chemicals on school grounds.
In this conversation, Nicki and Michelle talk about the Community Rights Movement and the Rights of Nature.
This interview was recorded in May 2023.
Further Reading & Links
“Box of Allowable Activism” from Community Environmental Legal Defence Fund (infographic)
Eco-Jurisprudence Monitor - tracking Rights of Nature Movement and Earth-based laws
Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund (CELDF)
Oregon Community Rights Network (ORCRN)
Protect Lane County Watersheds - mission & Bill of Rights
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Community Rights with Michelle Holman
[music]
Nicki: Hello, welcome to Nicki's Wonder List, a podcast about exploring story in a time of collapse. I'm Nicki Youngsma
Nicki: Today, we're joined by Michelle Holman, an activist in the community rights movement in Lane County, Oregon.
[music fade]
Michelle has lived in Deadwood, a community in Western Lane County's Coast Range, for more than 40 years, where she's been active in the anti herbicide struggle since the late 1970s.
After many years of her community's unsuccessful fight to stop government- protected aerial spraying of toxic chemicals by private logging companies, she renounced traditional activism and joined the Community Rights Movement. She is a founder of Community Rights Lane County and the Oregon Community Rights Network. She has served on the Mapleton School Board for 35 years, where more than 20 years ago, the school district stopped using toxic chemicals on school grounds.
In this conversation, we talk about the community rights movement and the rights of nature.
Nicki: Michelle, it's so nice to be here with you today. We met a few years ago, in a gathering that started off as a class and then it kind of became a social justice accountability group. And in that space, you know, we spent a lot of time, talking about how collective liberation work, you know, it really involves a lot of self work .Trough that time we spent together, I learned that you're an activist in the community rights movement. And I saw you present at the Public Interest Environmental Law Conference in March of 2021. and you were a speaker on a panel, of something called the Rights of Nature.
And that was, you know, Like, a thing I had heard of before, you know, the rights of nature, but it was always in, like, these distant contexts, um, and, like, something that was happening somewhere else. And, um, the work that you do, you know, you focus on your community, which is Lane County, Oregon, and we both live in Oregon. So, it really piqued my interest and it brought it alive for me.
And I'm just so grateful to be here today with you where I'm honored. I get to hear your voice and we get to clear some space, uh, to talk more about all that.
Michelle Holman: I'm loving that you invited me, and I'm loving that we have stayed connected.
I picked you out too. I mean, I felt like you're, you had an open door and I wanted to walk through. So this is cool.
Nicki: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Um , I'm going to, I'm going to just say this.
We're not going to get to talking about all the things I'd like to talk about. And I, I really say that because I need to hear it
Michelle Holman: Yeah..
Nicki: because like, I want to talk about all the things, you know? So I'm just throwing that out there. Um, first of all, Just to kind of help orient listeners, um, we're going to be talking about some organizations that you work with or are affiliated with and, um, you know, that includes CELDF, Oregon Community Rights Network, Community Rights Laine County. Can you just, describe briefly kind of how they're all related or, you know, what the nomenclature is?
Michelle Holman: Well, sure. So CELDEF is kind of like the mothership and that's the Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund. Although environmental is in their title, they're not just environmental. It's also social justice. We look at all the ways that corporations have, uh, Co opted our lives. And then the Oregon Community Rights Network is the local, um, the statewide mothership for the local chapters. Community Rights Lane County is a local chapter, and there are six, I do believe there's six, um, active chapters, although Lane County is absolutely the most active, the largest, and the most, um, and the longest running.
We've been actually, Lane County's been together since, uh, 2012. Community Rates, Lane County. , so the work that you focus on in your community in Lane County is aerial spraying. And, um, for listeners who don't know what that is, That's a practice in which aircraft spray or dump herbicides on land that has been clear cut for timber harvest.
Nicki: And, that deals a huge amount of harm. to human health, wildlife, and it doesn't need to happen.
So with that, can you kind of, like, describe a little bit of, like, the chronology or the different approaches that you have taken in your work in Lane County to interrupt that harm? Yeah.
Michelle Holman: this really starts like 40 years ago and, um, we did everything that a good activist would do. We, um, wrote letters to our, our elected officials, called our elected officials, went to corporate headquarters, protested at corporate headquarters, had corporate heads come to Deadwood and talk to us here, out here in the Coast Range. Um, We went to their corporate headquarters and had meetings, we wrote letters to the editor, all to no avail. This is 40 years ago. This is when it started. Um, and why? Because aerial spraying of herbicides in our forests is protected by law. It's a legal practice. So what we believe, we believe. Is that just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right.
And we have been trying to stop this, um, onslaught and this assault for the past 40 years. By the way, they still spray. So, I actually, um, defected from traditional activism in 2012 and helped to create Community Rights Lane County, um, because we realized that. We have to change the laws. That's the key. Not an easy, uh, task, almost impossible, but not only change the laws, but address the underlying sick system that we live within. So, actually in 2012 we wrote the aerial herbicide ban initiative to get it out to the voters. And of course, no surprise, the stakeholders that benefit from spraying challenged us all the way, every step. They just threw obstacle after obstacle in our path.
After almost, I'd say, almost 10 years, we went to the Oregon Supreme Court. And our argument was that we were being denied ballot access.
Again, no surprise, the court weighed in and ruled in favor of our adversaries and told us, sorry, we're not going to put your, you're not going to get to get this ballot, your initiative on the ballot.You're never going to get this in front of the voters. Like
I say, we were not surprised because the system protects the ones who have the laws. And those laws are created by corporate lobbyists. They take them to our government. Our government. passes them and then, uh, enforces them. So the system really just doesn't care about you and me.
Last year, well, let me just say that this, this initiative to stop spraying, which is really a terrible injustice to the forest and all, all the creatures that live within the forest, this is just one issue that community rights, attends to and, and it's really like a hook to just wake up the people.
Michelle Holman: That's what we're trying to do is , wake up the people to the fact that the government and these, , corporate wrongdoers really don't care about us. The system doesn't care about us. So, , community rights includes environmental rights, Such as the right to clean air and soil and air. Um, it, uh, worker rights, the right to living wages and equal pay for equal work.
Rights of nature, such as the right of ecosystems to exist and flourish. And democratic rights, such as the right of local community self government. Which is the right of people to write and pass laws to protect ourselves from corporate harm.
Nicki: Yeah.
Michelle Holman: So, um, this hook, , the aerial spray was a hook. It was a way to get people to wake up to the fact that the corporations are running roughshod over our communities.
Nicki: yeah. You've mentioned before that messaging sometimes is hard for the work that you do. Um, , you know, like when I started to learn more about, , this movement, I found like I was, like, that resonated for me because it was like, okay, there's a lot. Like, it gets abstract really fast, you know, because you're talking about lawmaking and legal doctrine and case law. And one of the things that really elevated it for me, like, or like, got, like, something clicked for me, was when I saw this infographic that CELDEF created called the Box of Allowable Activism. And I'm gonna explain that. I'm gonna describe that for listeners. So, there's this infographic, and there, um, is, like, a box of You know, people, there's these people who are standing in a cardboard box, and they're on a big lawn, and then on all sides of the lawn, there are four kind of agents. There's regulatory fallacy, state preemption, corporate privilege, and in nature and people as property. So, , , thinking about this metaphor? Kind of like, how does this Maybe relate or describe, you know, the work that you've been doing, um, you know, with aerial spraying for, for example.
Michelle Holman: Yeah. Well, okay. So the regulatory fallacy, that's an easy one. That's when you try to get your regulatory agencies to advocate for you. And you ask questions and you, you tell them your problem and you explain to them in detail how this is an unjust practice. It's making us sick. It's getting into our water.
It gets into the animals. That we eat the fish, the deer, and they tell you, um, well, thank you for your input and there's nothing you can do. This is a legal practice. And of course the EPA has sanctioned this. The EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency. What a joke. I mean, this is. This is the agency that tells us that this stuff has passed, uh, the tests and the allowable amounts of poison are, uh, within reason.
Some of us feel that that is a little bit of a callous approach to protecting the environment and the people. So, you know, the regulatory fallacy is just that. Those folks are, um, beholden to a governmental standard. And where does money come from? It's the governmental corporate bedroom. Those folks are in cahoots with one another, and I would say it's fraud. It's a fraudulent kind of relationship that they portray , to the people. We're being taken care of, you know, we got your backs. Nope, they got stockholders backs. So, that's the regulatory, fallacy.
Um, nature and people as property, well, That's just exactly how it's viewed.
, Nature is property to be used. And in the very beginning, of course, when the white folks got here , to this new land and noticed how the native people were squandering the resources. Oh, you don't know how to use that. this, this great land , we'll do it. , and it became,, standard operating procedure for nature to be bought and sold.
And then property rights protect, that, unequal and insane kind of relationship. So, you know, when you view nature as property, then she doesn't have inherent rights. And I use she, in my way of talking, nature does not have rights. And we believe that nature should have inherent rights that, allow nature to exist.
Persist naturally, evolve, flourish. And if you, do not have that , as your highway to life, then nature's gonna fight back and look what's happening. I mean, , everywhere you look there's devastation. Why? Corporate profits. Corporate profits trump nature's rights. And we think that that should be reversed.
Of course corporate rights are ensconced in the constitution, Right. I mean, that's, that's, a crazy notion…
Nicki: Yeah. Yeah. I know. Right.... the corporate welfare....
Michelle Holman: Absolutely. Absolutely. And really, I mean, there used to be a time when corporations existed for a specific purpose. That purpose had to benefit the community and, uh, it was for a limited time.
That's how corporations, were given their, go ahead by the government. Uh, that changed. That all changed. And that's what needs to be brought back. , you know, a corporation should not have rights into perpetuity. They need to be responsive to the times and the globe. And I think that's what has given corporations their edge on steroids ability to just run roughshod over us all. I forget the fourth one. That you mentioned,
Nicki: Oh, , the really juicy one for me, is state preemption.
Michelle Holman: state preemption. So state preemption, that is really, um, that has to be removed. And really all the work that we do at the local is actually preparing us to, to be a statewide organization with enough capacity to challenge that and change that and write a constitutional amendment to our state constitution that removes state preemption because state preemption says that unless , your wonderful state government daddy tells you you can do it, you can't do it.
Municipalities cannot, exceed the state's rights. So the state has ultimate rights. There's also, once, you know, we're talking about scaffolding. You start at the local, you go to the state, and then you go to the fed. And the federal constitution also has a preemption clause.
That needs to be removed as well. So, we have our eye on a long trajectory towards, uh, eliminating state preemption and federal preemption.
Nicki: Yeah. So, you know, when you describe your old activism and your new activism, like, I kind of want to open that up a little bit more. Um, you know, you mentioned the year 2012, you know, you joined this movement, so I kind of want to know more about that, like, turning point for you.
Michelle Holman: Well, you can only bang your head against the wall so long. And, within the confines of traditional activism where you're begging state legislatures You're begging corporate heads. I mean, that is folly. You're playing in their sandbox. They write the rules. You have to fit yourself in there. This movement, the community rights movement, empowers people.
And so instead of talking to my legislators, who I feel are There's some nice ones, sure, but they're spineless in reality, or instead of expecting corporations to actually get a conscience and a soul and protect the earth and all of her creatures, I look to my neighbors, I look to people who live right here, and I ask the question, Why is it that corporations have more rights to do harm in our community than we have to protect ourselves from that harm?
That is a unifying notion, whether you're on the right or left of the political spectrum. Nobody loves having this kind of, um, lack of control in our own communities. We do not have control to do what we need to do to protect ourselves and our families. So I really just walked away from talking to the power holders.
And now I talk to my neighbors, and you know, the deal is, I mean, yeah, they have the power, they have the money, we have the numbers, and every, people's movement that I've studied Started out slow with, you know, the people who were harmed and gained critical mass by just not giving up, not stopping.
You know, that, women didn't get the right to vote 120 years, right? How long did it take us to get civil rights? You know, and it started out with just those being harmed and then pretty soon you had whites and Blacks on those buses going to the South. You know, so, This is, this is this kind of work and that's the inspiration that we draw from.
You know, we know people's movements, have the potential and the righteous, to actually spark, big, big change. It's gonna take big change to wrestle. our globe back from the corporate heads. And we, we're not delusional. We don't see this happening overnight or maybe not even in my lifetime, but man, we really have to challenge what is a corporate privilege.
Nicki: you, um, described a little bit earlier with the ballad initiative process, you know, with the aerial spraying ban, um, and how that was shut down, again, by the box of allowable activism. And so some of the tools that, you and your community members have been using are, are not always, like, the end point. They're a tool
and, , They're useful, and they're important, but they're not the end point, , so can you describe, uh, you know, open it up a little bit more about, you said a little bit of this earlier, but like, what do you see as the end point? , how is that part of a larger picture and what does that larger picture look like? Or what do you see that working in tandem with to do what?
Michelle Holman: Well, I think the larger picture or the goal is democracy. And I think what we realize or we're willing to call out is that we've never lived in a democracy. We think it's a good idea and we should try it. So what that would take is more people being involved. You know, there's, we are the quotient that's left out.
We have the executive branch, the legislative branch, we have the judiciary. None of those really are us. and us, the people. We are , the prime tending ground for, , change. So, we use the initiative system because, for one, we get out there when we're gathering signatures and we get to talk to people and raise the specter of how this system is sorrowfully lacking.
And with that said, I will just say that Lane County , has written and is , hopefully going to get out, we're actually having a little, , court issue with our ballot title, but we wrote the Protect Lane County Watersheds Initiative Which is in a way kind of a backdoor to aerial spray, because if you're going to protect the watersheds, you probably don't get to spray toxic chemicals from helicopters, right?
So, , once we get out there and we can talk about these things with people and water is certainly a unifying, issue. We have, the opportunity to educate people about community rights and all the other systems failures that , we're facing. Um, I will say we do not see that we have all the answers and that we, ask folks to help us with problem solving.
The initiative system is one way. You know, there's people doing mutual aid. love that because it's not asking permission, it's just going out there and doing the work. Um, although, the way I see it, we shouldn't have to be doing that because we shouldn't have problems like we have. Where, in Portland for instance, there's some really great mutual aid going on with housing.
It's great. Um, but why, why should that even exist? A system that would be humane, , would never need, um, a separate entity to address a problem that's being created and continually being created. It's not going away. So the mutual aid is like a band aid. It's important, um, but we think it's systemic. Uh, there's citizens assemblies that are popping up all over the world.
Maybe that's a way, you know, to try to organize in the U. S. is particularly difficult, but it's not impossible. So maybe citizens assemblies, you know, where Citizens come together to make recommendations and vote. Um, this is something I'm looking into. I don't know that much about it, but, . You know, the main thing we're about is exposing and challenging the system that doesn't take care of us.
Nicki: Yeah.
Michelle Holman: But the goal truly is democracy, I think. That's, that is the goal, where the people take our rightful place. And, yeah, I mean, you People are lazy. People are uninformed. People are overwhelmed. But, you know, there just are no free passes to civic involvement and civic responsibility. So, you know, every one of us can find some time, and damn the work would be easier if, if everybody put in just a little bit.
Nicki: Yeah. Thinking about that, you were also a panelist at that same, conference in 2023.
Michelle Holman: Mm-Hmm.
Nicki: one of the other panelists, you know, , was talking about how this is a movement, like a global movement. And it's kind of quiet, you know, so like one of the panelists, like one of the things that they do is document evidence of this movement, , to show that actually this is something that like people are doing worldwide.
They're doing at the municipal level, the state level, and then the national level, like Ecuador is used as kind of like the prime example of , , what I understand is, um, doing the scaffolding work of incorporating protection of nature as an entity within a legal framework so instead of operating from the thing that we don't want versus the thing that we do want , which is language, you know, I'm borrowing from you.
Um, but, yeah, I kind of picture like a flow of water. That's funny. That's the image that
comes to my mind. like there is this wave, there's this wave and people are doing this work and, , it's, not exotic. We all need clean water and we need clean air and we need access to the things we need to like live with dignity and in good health and, . , , changing the actual legal structure of how, the various state levels of, , these systems that we're living under, , it requires actually building the thing. Like, you have to actually Build the laws. You have to, like, build the case law. You have to build, you know, and I'm not an attorney, but, like, this is just my understanding as, a person, , but, like, you actually have to build the house, so to say.
And, like, that takes time. It's like a slow moving thing. Um, , you mentioned it's something you might not see in your lifetime. And that is sobering and also, like, empowering, I guess, you know, when I think of, committing to work like that.
What do you wish, I guess, that you knew about this work before getting involved with it?
Michelle Holman: Um, wow, let's see. I think I was a little naive when we first got on to it. It was like, yeah, we're going to write an initiative and we'll just change the law. And the people will vote on it. And we'll protect our, And other people will love what we're doing and they'll do it in their community and it'll be like a patchwork quilt and there will be a protection here and there will be protection there and pretty soon it's going to be a blanket.
And I thought, man, this stuff is so great. People are just going to latch on to it. Well, what I wish I had known is that nothing, nothing of the sort is actually going to happen that quickly and that the effort. It takes, it takes a work ethic. Um, the people that I work with are incredibly committed and, and we are growing, but it's slow and it would be really, really wonderful if things could happen faster.
I think, might have Had too great of expectations about how slowly this work would move and honestly there really is this rub between the long Slow slog up a tall mountain and the immediate need that the mother earth is begging us to employ So, yeah, at this last PILC conference, our panel was protecting our vital watersheds, and the tagline was transitioning to rights of nature as a new paradigm for environmental protection.
Well, yes, that is happening. And there it is gaining steam and it is very quiet because we do not have a media outlet, to shout from the rafters. Um, it's not sexy enough for your mainstream media to grab onto. Um, and you know, of course, because this is like protection. You only get news when there's a crisis, when there's a cataclysm.
So here we are trying to front load it. We'd like to protect nature before she disappears on us, right? And with that panel we had a, um, a really smart guy. He's a professor at the University of Oregon and he does, the data collection, and he monitors what's going on globally.
So he had a really important role to play there. , , , his name, by the way, is Craig Kaufman, Professor Craig Kaufman. What a cool guy. He's written books, and you can check him out. He's a great resource and a great ally.
Our other speaker was Kunu Bercham and he's one of the chief petitioners of the Protect Lane County Watersheds Initiative that we are putting out there and we will be on the streets soon.
We're just fighting over a ballot title. Of course, that we kind of should have expected because our detractors Look for anything. They look for anything and they just want to slow the process and we just want to get out there and get signatures, but you know, we're patient. We know this is what it has to be.
So as soon as we get out of this little court battle, I would say maybe A month will be hitting the streets. But Kunu is, uh, he's Cheyenne and Ho Chunk and he brings in the traditional ecological knowledge, uh, side of things and is a great, , , mouthpiece for this work. Uh, he's a young guy, he's a hip hop artist, he has, access to a demographic that we truly need on board.
So, um, and he's just a cool guy. And then, you know, I just spoke from my own experience as someone who's been involved for a long time. And I'm also a chief petitioner. So, uh, the three of us, I think we were a nice little trifecta at that, at that gathering and we had a packed house. It was fantastic.
We had people sitting on the floor. I mean, it was the, it really. It resonated. Water is a thing, you know, it brings people together.
So, you know, um, , I mean, I would say that as far as, What I wish I had known. I tend towards impatience. I want justice yesterday. But, you know, I, what I've learned being involved in this for 10 plus years is that , I have not, , for a minute, countered the analysis that community rights puts forward.
I believe in it. I believe that when we can rein in corporate, , privilege and when we can institute a true democracy that cares about the people and the earth first, where nature has rights, uh, inherent rights, this is the kind of thing that's going to be a legacy for our kids and our grandkids.
Nicki: . , what's coming to mind for me is, you know, how important it is that we do find common ground
one of the things you have said in the past is that, , you often talk to people who don't think like you. And like, I remember you said that years ago and I have never forgotten it. you know, and I just think about, like, how hard that is sometimes to be in conversation and be in community with, like, not just conversation but, like, actually working, living, interacting with people , at a frequency that you're calling community, you know, and like community is not this like, you know, like rainbows and like puppy dogs thing all the time.
it's gritty. And, um, you know, we've talked about this in the past how, like, building bridges and, like, maintaining them with, people, , , some who you, you know, maybe you think alike , and, and also people that , you don't share a lot with.
Nicki: Um, it's hard. It's really, really hard. , so, like, I guess , I want to know for you where you're at with this work that you're doing, where you're talking to people, you're talking to people who don't think like you, what do you recommend to people who are like looking to do that work, like build community where they're at, you know, especially with people who maybe don't think like them.
Michelle Holman: Um, well, first of all, uh, you gotta be a good listener. You have to learn how to listen. I mean, it's, I mean, I, I've always had all the answers, and I love to just share my wisdom, and I'm just gonna like, if you think like me, we're good, let's go. But, um, people have very complex inner lives, and we come from different places.
So when you When you can let people have the floor, when you can acquiesce and take a back seat, um, It's disarming. Then you find your common ground. And the common ground, this is the thing that is, I mean, it's brilliant. But most people don't love the government. I don't care where you are on the spectrum.
People are disappointed. And reality is that the government has really failed in its responsibility to the public. , you know, by enacting laws that tolerate or permit harm in communities. So, you know, when, when you can find the place that you agree upon, capitalize on it. You know, you don't want to talk about all your social issues that you hold dear, , that are a turn off and close the door and shut people's ears.
to your voice Find the thing that we can agree on. And this is what I love about community rights. It's just, if you talk about corporate privilege, if you talk about governmental tone deafness, you're gonna find allies. And, so that's the messaging, I think, that has worked for me in my little community. I live out here in the Sticks, in the Coast Range.
The school my kids go to, which I've been on the school board for 35 years. So, um, I'm very involved, but it's a very, it's a little rural school. These rural schools basically are educating, uh, kids. A more conservative group of people. And so, uh, you know, and then you'll find the right wingers and the Trump supporters and the libertarians, but regardless, we're going to sit in the gym together, we're going to watch our kids play.
compete on the same teams, and we're going to find that we actually like each other if we just disarm. And so, um, I mean, it's been a great, laboratory for me. I've learned a lot about myself and about people who don't think like me. And I think in terms of doing this work, if we cannot find common ground, we are destined to just be in a prison of dysfunction.
That doesn't feel very good. So, uh, amazingly over years, I mean, I've lived out here for 40 years now. And when I first got here, I didn't want to talk to any red necks. I was not interested in having a conversation. I didn't even think I'd send my kids to that school. And instead, you know, , I got my own education.
There's a lot of good people out here who don't think like me. Um, And they've been my teachers as well.
Nicki: . Yeah, you know, when you say, um, acquiesce, you know, like that's kind of part of the process, , , to build relationships,
Michelle Holman: mm hmm.
Nicki: You know, just thinking about my own self work, where it's like, okay, if I'm acquiescing something to someone who I think, might be someone who doesn't agree with me or doesn't think like me, you know, on certain issues, I might be, , allowing them or empowering them to, , continue perpetuating harm. Like, if I'm going to side with someone who's a libertarian or, a Trump supporter or something like that, then I'm going to be somehow giving them in the upper, like, upper hand. upper, um, God, what's that analogy? The upper hand. That's it. The upper hand to perpetuate systems of oppression.
Like, have you heard that before? Have you experienced that before? And like, what do you say to people who are kind of like, you know, where that comes from for me is like my own internalized white liberal violence. , so, like, that's a piece for me that I'm acknowledging, , because ultimately, , we're all people and, like, finding things to come together around is really important. Like, we need to be better at that and if I'm recognizing that that's I am having a problem doing that, , because I'm I'm feeling fear or suspicion. Have you heard that before I guess is what I want to know or what do you say to that ?
Michelle Holman: Yeah. And I think, I mean, I can only speak for myself and my experience, but start small. Just start small. Have low expectations. This isn't going to happen overnight. You're not going to have a conversation with someone who doesn't share your viewpoints and immediately find, uh, some place.
Sometimes that happens. Sometimes it doesn't happen at all. Prepare yourself for disappointment. People are disappointing. Um, there are certain people I'm not going to have a conversation with about anything. I just, this is pointless. I, and there's not enough time in, in my life to address everybody I come into contact with.
Um, so, you know, I like to talk to fence sitters. People who don't necessarily think like me, but aren't so entrenched in their own, worldview that they're impenetrable. You know, the thing I like to remind myself is, there is nothing that anyone could say to me to change my mind about, queer rights.
So why do I think I have the ability to change somebody's mind who is absolutely opposed to queer rights? I'm just not going to approach that subject. You know, whether it's based on their religion or their upbringing, whatever it is, it's, you know, okay, you feel that way, that's a subject we're not going to talk about.
But, probably can talk about corporate and governmental, , alliance and, and how detrimental that is to society. There is something, somewhere, likely, and again, not with every person, but until we start coming out of our silos, our little comfortable zones, where people think just like us, and we only read this publication, I mean, I make myself read, , right wing publication sparingly, because I can only tolerate so much, but I feel like I need to know and see what is being said out there so that I have more of a full idea of the range of perspectives. Um, and one on one with a live body, that stuff's gold. If you can get in there and have those conversations, you know, sometimes it's just the guy pumping your gas, you know, and you have a little thought, a little conversation really quick.
Sometimes it unlocks, ...
um you never know the seeds you plant. You just never know.
Nicki: Oh yeah I love that .
Michelle Holman: I just encourage people to try
it, you know?
Nicki: yeah you never know the seeds you plant I love that
Michelle Holman: Mm hmm.
Nicki: well we're coming close to time
Michelle Holman: heh. has been lovely.
Nicki: Yeah, , same. , , you know, considering the things that we've talked about today, um, when you think about, you know, the work that you do or, , what, things could be like, you know, what you imagine is possible. , what does that look like to you or what does that feel like to you?
Michelle Holman: Well, I mean I can envision the promised land where, people have more rights , are imbued with more rights to protect where we live, and ourselves, and our communities. I envision that. I really see it as our responsibility to move towards that, like, that is required of us. You know, you can't unsee what you see, um, and so I do see how, uh, the Corporate Governmental Alliance has shattered so many dreams, is committed to destruction at all costs.
I mean, these people, and they're people, they're not just government and corporations, those are people that populate those institutions.
They have kids, they have grandkids, but you know, you would, you would think, um, that they didn't get the memo somewhere. And so, those of us who did get the memo, We're required to be involved.
We get hit and slapped down daily, on the daily. Uh, that does not dissuade us because we know that , we're the mouthpiece for those who can't speak. You know, nature. We're the mouthpiece for the generations coming after us. And we have to, we just have to expose and challenge what we know is wrong. We're justice seekers.
That's what we do. So, in this way, I don't see my work ever ending. I often joke about I'll probably be doing this after I'm dead. Um, but, you know, but, , regardless, you know, I, I feel very inspired by those who have come before us and by the people I work with in the now. Uh, there's just no end to, um, what I see is the potential for real democracy where people can vote. People have a big say in what's going on.
.
Nicki: So this question is very open. Um, I want to know about feeling surprised. I want to know from you, what's a time that you've felt the feeling of surprise? And this can be, like, something very small. This can be, like, earth shattering. It can be about what we've talked about today. It can be about something completely unrelated. , I just want to know is something that comes to mind for you when you felt surprised?
Michelle Holman: Hmm Well, um, I guess
The first thing I could, that comes to mind is, uh, I was surprised that not more people wanted to do this work. That's what I was surprised about. And even in my own little Deadwood community, where we have been fighting the sprays, I thought, oh, at least in Deadwood, we're going to get, like, critical mass.
And no. And so it's surprising to me that more people don't heed the call, that more people don't feel it's me. I, I have a role to play. I am still surprised by that. Um, and I don't know, you know, like I said, maybe it's laziness. Maybe it's people are too consumed with just trying to take care of their families.
Maybe it's hedonism. I don't know. But, um, damn, you know, it feels good to get outside yourself. And be a part of something that has potential to change, , the paradigm and flip it over and make life more sacred. You know, I don't know. Yeah, that's surprising. Definitely disappointing. But it doesn't stop me.
I mean, I don't feel like, well, , you know, I don't get enough, support, uh, in terms of population involvement. But, um, , it doesn't disuade me. I'm in it to win it, man. And until we can create a world that our kids and their kids deserve. I ain't going nowhere.
Nicki: Yeah. I hear you on that.
Where can people, , you know, listeners, um, who've been with us in this conversation and they want to learn more about your work or about community rights in county, cell deaf, um, where can they go to learn more?
Michelle Holman: Yeah, well, you can come to CELDEF. org. That's, like I said, , , that's the national organization. The, , statewide organization is ORCORN, Oregon Community Rights. And that's, uh, ORCORN. org. Or CommunityRightsLaneCounty. org is the local. And also, um, you can contact me through Community Rights Lane County.
I'm willing to talk at nauseam to, uh, whoever wants to hear. I make presentations all over the state. , Uh, you know, I live and breathe this. I believe it. And so, um, I put myself out there. We don't charge. We are an all volunteer organization, , at the local. So, , Yeah, hit me up and I'll show up either Zoom or even in person.
Nicki: Great. Thank you for that. , I'll link all of those things in the show notes. , So, uh, yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, Michelle. Thank you so, so much.
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This was just a delight to be with you and, and learn more. Um, this was really nice. Thank you so much.
Michelle Holman: privilege, sister.
Nicki: That concludes this episode of Nicki's Wonder List. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I'm really glad I got to share it here. Stay in the loop with us exploring story and a time of collapse by going to nickiswonderlist.com and signing up for updates. You can also click on the link in the show notes to get there.
Thank you for listening to Nicki's Wonder List until next time.
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